>> "It will be on her credit history, it will make it difficult for her to get a job, for her to get housing, to buy a car, or do anything else that she needs to do, to be able to return to society," Foster told the I-Team. "They have a lien attached to anything you get in life.”
That is the purpose. People don't like to talk about how class-based US society remains. People, voters, actively want a hierarchy of citizens. Everyone is grouped into neat permanent boxes. There are the "illegals" who live in constant fear of arrest. There are "felons" who can only work certain jobs. There are "sex offenders" who can only live in certain places. Even for free, law-abiding, people there exists a hierarchy of citizenship ranging from "US national" to "citizen", with "native-born citizen" being at the top. Imposing lifetime financial burdens on criminals just creates another underclass of perpetually indigent persons. That is the goal of the policy and reflects the desire of a great many powerful people. Lack of social mobility makes powerful people feel safe. For a while.
ryandrake 10 days ago [-]
The Cruelty Is the Point[1]. There's a segment of US society who are not satisfied until the maximum amount of cruelty is applied to people they identify as their opponents. Prisoners (and ex-prisoners) are an easy target because they've already done something to "deserve" suffering, and few will argue to treat them kindly. So these people can vote to fire all of their cruelty at this class with no pushback. I don't really think at its core it's about "people feeling safe." The people pushing for these things simply want an "other" to suffer, and so they vote to create underclasses and legal ways to inflict this suffering. And they rejoice in it.
I used to live in Florida, but sadly the state has taken a sharp right turn recently, and has become this deranged laboratory where politicians experiment with innovative forms of cruelty. Really pushing the boundaries and finding out what they can legally inflict. I've long since escaped that place (and hopefully the few very vocal sadists who determine the state's politics), but it's sad to know I live in the same country as them.
This. America has a retribution problem. The prison industrial complex was never about reform, or rehabilitation, it is about vengeance and retribution. That is what Americans most want.
mindslight 10 days ago [-]
I've got to wonder how much this phenomenon is because the US has eschewed social classes. Since there's no arbitrary "divine right" classes to occupy most people's apparent desire for hierarchy, people actively try to recreate such classes based on the available criteria.
jampekka 10 days ago [-]
New social classes emerged with capitalism to replace the feudal classes. This is the core reason why socialists aren't very fond of the bourgeoisie.
mindslight 10 days ago [-]
Sure, but wealth-based classes are still missing a larger philosophical justification. The flip side of the virtue of social mobility, if you will. So the philosophical justification gets filled in with the just world fallacy and whatnot.
jampekka 10 days ago [-]
I'd say the just world or similar is the contemporary philosophical justification. Fancier framing is that economical position reflects marginal productivity because of efficient markets. And "hard-work" and prosperity theology and genetical superiority and what have you.
Marx's thesis is that a system of production/social organization produces ideology (or "superstructure") for it's justification and stability (materialism vs Hegel's idealism). The justifications (e.g. divine right) are probably always quite bad and not very universally accepted.
decremental 10 days ago [-]
[dead]
thelastgallon 10 days ago [-]
Private prisons must be profitable and keep growing to satisfy the shareholders!
In the last quarter of the twentieth century, the incarceration rate in the US increased by a factor of five.[22] Between the years 2001 and 2012, crime rates (both property and violent crimes) have declined 22% after already falling 30% in years prior between 1991 and 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...
Private prisons are absolutely abhorrent when you consider the core nature of business entities. Also they do appear to be a red herring - they are bad and sound bad - but are not significant percentage wise.
octopoc 10 days ago [-]
That decline is most likely inaccurate due to people not reporting crime because they know the police will do nothing, or due to changing definitions of crime.
I remember some news stories on HN about a California city where a man filmed large-scale exchange of stolen goods (laptops, cell phones, etc.), the police did nothing, and a local news outlet interviewed city hall and found that city hall explicitly instructed the police to do nothing.
Another anecdote on HN was a story about how breaking into a vehicle and stealing things was only illegal if the vehicle's doors were locked. If the thief was caught on camera checking the doors, that was considered proof that the doors were locked. So thieves figured out that there was on proof the doors were locked if they simple broke the glass without even trying the door to see if it was locked.
xrd 10 days ago [-]
I'm having a hard time squaring your comments with my own anecdotes. On the one hand, it clearly seems like NYC is safer than the NYC of the 80s. I know there are a lot of stories that would support or deny that assertion.
And, it feels like there are perverse incentives to over-report crime when it is convenient. I recall reading Twitter posts during the "crime surge" of the pandemic where the police department indicated they were too overwhelmed by a car jacking to deal with other crimes, so be careful out there!
I really wish there was someone reporting on exactly what you have called out, that the reporting has probably changed significantly, and that deserves scrutiny.
FireBeyond 10 days ago [-]
Will try to cut long story into something brief, to this.
Phone stolen. Go through usual steps. A few weeks later, someone contacts me, "hey, I was sold what seems to be your phone on eBay..." (I had put a message on it). "I was wondering if you'd got a replacement, and be willing to unlock the phone. I just bought it..". Points for gumption, I guess. I said "How do I know you weren't the thief..."
He reached out to the seller, who initially refused to exchange the phone. "I am in contact with the legit owner of the phone, and will give him your info so he can pass on to the police". Seller exchanged phone. This guy then gave me the info and listing anyway.
My phone. IMEI had two digits transposed. Looked at the guys other listings, and it was a warehouse of stolen goods, effectively: hundreds of Macs and other laptops, mostly "no accessories, no charger", hundreds of phones, "no cables, locked", and so on. All the phones had invalid IMEIs unless you un-transposed the same two digits that were transposed in mine (plausible deniability I guess? You search for IMEI, no hits. But it looks legit because he's willing to share it, and can say 'oops, typo').
Go to the police. They were supremely uninterested. "Well, he probably wasn't the guy who actually stole your phone". I pointed out that I thought it was still a crime to sell stolen goods, even if you didn't sell them, and if you're selling dozens or more near current MBPs for $300ish "without any accessories, may be locked", then what is your explanation?
Still didn't care.
I did my part, short of going to the home nearby and pouring water in his gas tank, which was tempting.
jampekka 9 days ago [-]
Crime is often studied using victimization surveys, e.g. polling how many people consider having been a victim of a crime last year. Exactly to control for differences in law enforcement and crime reporting over time and location.
Violent crime and property crime victimizations both dropped over 70% between 1993 and 2022.
Your view of the situation doesn't reflect the reality. This is the case for most Americans: people think crime has increased, even though it has plummeted.
private prisons get too much credit, public prisons also have perverse incentives driven by their workers' union (if only the prisoners were allowed to unionize too!)
slillibri 10 days ago [-]
Private prisons account for < 10% of incarcerated individuals nationally, but it must be noted that many states do not have private prisons, and some states, such as Montana, have 49% of incarcerated individuals in private prisons.
This idea of "user fees" for subjects of the government is a cancer. Governments need to be seen as their own independent entities with their own responsibility for their actions, not some blameless ambient authority that just exists.
The government chose to put these people in cages, regardless of it perhaps being sensible policy agreed upon by the public. The responsibility of paying for the cages to put people in should rest fully on the government. It's quite perverse to take away someone's freedom and then charge them for the "privilege" as if it's some type of consensual arrangement. The same goes for criminal "court costs" and even "permit fees".
The true cost of government needs to reside with the government rather than being externalized. If that makes certain government activities "too expensive" and there is no political will to pay for their true costs, then those activities should be scaled back to exist within their means.
rjbwork 10 days ago [-]
The primitive sadism underpinning the carceral system in this country is shameful.
PM_me_your_math 10 days ago [-]
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noobermin 10 days ago [-]
This story is absolutely unbelievable, like what is even the point of prison if this is what it does? Sure as a teenager Hoffman was deliquent but a $130k fine on someone who didn't even need to serve the sentence seems to obviously be a cruel and unusual punishment.
jampekka 10 days ago [-]
The land of the fee, the home of the slave.
pfisch 10 days ago [-]
Even if they do stay in prison for the entire sentence this is crazy.
50$ a day is insane and must be impossible for 99% of inmates to ever repay.
ThrowawayIP 10 days ago [-]
Even with Tech Salaries, $1550/month is hugely damaging to your finances. I can't imagine trying to pay that on less than $15/hour.
ceinewydd 10 days ago [-]
Was it picked as $50/day because that represents some (not even most) of the cost to the State of Florida for incarcerating you for crimes? Did Florida justify this or decide that taxpayers shouldn’t be so heavily burdened by individuals who decide to commit crimes?
I’m not even sure this is simply a “rent” — unlike renting an apartment or a house (shelter), while the prison is also shelter, it also has to be 24x7 staffed with guards (and likely other personnel like a medical clinic). There’s fixed costs like utilities which probably don’t vary much based on population (lighting and heating), and variable costs like food, water and waste management.
It’s certainly a bit crazy to charge someone for 7 years if they only serve 70 days, but I see some logic to charging per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”.
r2_pilot 10 days ago [-]
> per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”.
Arguably, it generates the opposite behavior in some folks: "Well, my circumstances are bad, so I may as well always do bad since there's no upside to participating in society since I'm permanently screwed."
rappatic 10 days ago [-]
Florida's minimum wage is $12/hour. If you work two jobs, say 60 hrs/week, repaying the state for your time in prison would take half of all the money you make. This is unbelievably evil.
kenjackson 10 days ago [-]
I’m typically a ”tough on crime“ person, but this is absurd. Charging people for a resource that they didn’t use, which is intended to be reusable seems like pure exploitation. If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee, to cover having to refill the cell — I don’t like it, but I’d get it. But charging someone for 7 years?!?
consp 10 days ago [-]
> If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee
Why? They are not using it and have no choice in the matter. It's like having to pay rent until the next renter arrives, which you have no control over.
kenjackson 10 days ago [-]
It's like taking out a 10 year lease, but leaving early. If you leave early, I think it's fair that you're on the hook until a new renter can come in -- or at least some reasonable amount of time to give the facility to find a new renter.
croes 10 days ago [-]
>Florida can also impose a new bill on the next occupant of that bed, potentially allowing the state to double, triple, or quadruple charge for the same bed.
More like paying while next renter is already paying and the renter after him and the renter after him.
Just jail everybody to 10 years release them after a week and get the money the next 10 years.
Everywhere else this would be called a scam and exploitation.
baobun 10 days ago [-]
> "There was another girl in there that was something she shouldn’t have been doing and instead of getting involved and doing what they asked, the director kicked me out. So technically that’s failure to complete your terms of the courts," Hoffman said.
> Because of that, the judge sentenced Hoffman to seven years in prison. She served 10 months after the judge allowed her to participate in a youth offender boot camp.
My English comprehension is failing. She got seven years because of what...?
euroderf 10 days ago [-]
A sort of a time-shifted debtor's prison.
beaeglebeachh 10 days ago [-]
Courts are great at getting around debtors prison laws. They just say you're violating court order to pay your debt. You see... You're not imprisoned for debt, you're imprisoned for disobeying the judge telling you to pay it!
beaeglebeachh 10 days ago [-]
Debt collectors still chase me for the cost of a warrant served by CBP, where nothing was found.
FireBeyond 10 days ago [-]
And yet where police demonstrably flashbang your house, batter down your door, and it was the wrong house for their warrant...
... they have no liability or obligation - and will go to court to fight having to pay you for the damage they did.
Their "argument" is that liability is on the target of their warrant, which doesn't answer awkward questions like "what if the target is never convicted of a crime" and "the target didn't make you raid the wrong house..."
jprd 10 days ago [-]
This is so f*cking bananas, don't believe the hype - slavery isn't dead in the US.
Clubber 10 days ago [-]
It never was, the 13th amendment (which abolishes slavery) has an exception for convicted citizens:
AMENDMENT XIII
Section 1.Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
rjbwork 10 days ago [-]
Not only is it not dead, it has been intentionally and painstakingly reconstructed over the past ~150 years.
toomuchtodo 10 days ago [-]
There is a non-insignificant cohort of the electorate who votes for this intentionally.
This is a horrible thing, but it's not slavery. That's just a rhetorical device.
michaelmrose 10 days ago [-]
You can be jailed for not paying your fines. They will at minimum pay interest and payments towards principal for life and could at maximum be incarcerated and enslaved in fact whilest incurring additional fines.
DiggyJohnson 10 days ago [-]
I see what you're saying, all I'm saying is that a society with debtors prisons and issues with their penal system is bad - very bad - but doesn't constitute the conditions or nearly in much in common with slavery as you're making it out. Invoking "slavery" like this and making it seem like you mean this "literally" always seems ineffective and inflammatory to me.
michaelmrose 10 days ago [-]
When they ended slavery they explicitly carved out an exemption for prisoners who could still legally be enslaved. These prisoners are by and large majority minority and are often used by the state to enrich themselves. EG its a huge cost to the country but a given county where a prison is situated gets a lot of the money so spent, prison guard unions earn money from their members, everyone working in the industry makes money, companies are able to make money from cheap labor, in some cases private prison companies are directly enriched.
In response to this said parties lobby heavily for more enslavement. This is often accomplished by over policing minorities especially for drug related offenses, turning the penal system deliberately into slide into interested parties pockets instead of a ladder up, setting policy with an eye to increasing costs as opposed to benefiting society.
In at least a few cases judges were literally caught selling children into slavery. In exchange for kickbacks from a private prison company they were sentencing offenders to maximum sentences.
The bad thing is that were someone unjustly enslaved merely for the color of their skin we should all rush to break their chains. Someone enslaved by a system which shook them down in hopes of finding drugs and then ruined their lives there is no sympathy because they are the villain. America never ended slavery they just found a way to justify it.
DiggyJohnson 4 days ago [-]
I can understand all of that, empathize with it, and still believe it's a massive stress to claim it's "[literally] slavery" when its more related or connected to the history of slavery.
That's what I mean by rhetorical device.
michaelmrose 4 days ago [-]
The amendment that ended slavery was careful to carve out an exemption for enslaving prisoners. We have and private and public prisons who rent prisoners to private businesses wherein the companies pay nothing or a token amount to the prisoners themselves and the lions share of the remunerations to the prisoners owners. We still have slavery as it would have been understood to exist for thousands of years.
DiggyJohnson 3 days ago [-]
I understand that amendment.
Would you agree that one difference between modern penal mandatory labor (modern slavery as you would say) is that for most prisoners, their bondage ends at the end of their prison sentence? And that they are not legally owned as property like in chattel slavery?
michaelmrose 3 days ago [-]
Historically there have been many definitions. Being sublet without your own permission and worked for your owners benefit would be recognized as slavery the world over for thousands of years. Even the drafters of the 14th agreed.
russh 10 days ago [-]
Indentured servitude.
redeeman 10 days ago [-]
or anywhere else. the kings protection money must be paid, or else. You might call it fancy words to distract, but it is what it is
EA-3167 10 days ago [-]
Don't kid yourself, this isn't some widespread issue in the US, this is Florida being Florida.
10 days ago [-]
PM_me_your_math 10 days ago [-]
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10 days ago [-]
fcb92019 10 days ago [-]
[flagged]
JoeAltmaier 10 days ago [-]
That is such a load. Putting words in their mouth, trying to justify the cruelty and vicious vindictiveness of a broken state by throwing blame.
They paid for their cell already. The bill for a room they didn't inhabit is usurious. You book a room for a weekend, they charge you for six years, you'd complain too.
I know, just a troll, I should learn to leave them to die on the vine.
Rendered at 09:25:33 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
That is the purpose. People don't like to talk about how class-based US society remains. People, voters, actively want a hierarchy of citizens. Everyone is grouped into neat permanent boxes. There are the "illegals" who live in constant fear of arrest. There are "felons" who can only work certain jobs. There are "sex offenders" who can only live in certain places. Even for free, law-abiding, people there exists a hierarchy of citizenship ranging from "US national" to "citizen", with "native-born citizen" being at the top. Imposing lifetime financial burdens on criminals just creates another underclass of perpetually indigent persons. That is the goal of the policy and reflects the desire of a great many powerful people. Lack of social mobility makes powerful people feel safe. For a while.
I used to live in Florida, but sadly the state has taken a sharp right turn recently, and has become this deranged laboratory where politicians experiment with innovative forms of cruelty. Really pushing the boundaries and finding out what they can legally inflict. I've long since escaped that place (and hopefully the few very vocal sadists who determine the state's politics), but it's sad to know I live in the same country as them.
1: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelt...
Marx's thesis is that a system of production/social organization produces ideology (or "superstructure") for it's justification and stability (materialism vs Hegel's idealism). The justifications (e.g. divine right) are probably always quite bad and not very universally accepted.
In the last quarter of the twentieth century, the incarceration rate in the US increased by a factor of five.[22] Between the years 2001 and 2012, crime rates (both property and violent crimes) have declined 22% after already falling 30% in years prior between 1991 and 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
I remember some news stories on HN about a California city where a man filmed large-scale exchange of stolen goods (laptops, cell phones, etc.), the police did nothing, and a local news outlet interviewed city hall and found that city hall explicitly instructed the police to do nothing.
Another anecdote on HN was a story about how breaking into a vehicle and stealing things was only illegal if the vehicle's doors were locked. If the thief was caught on camera checking the doors, that was considered proof that the doors were locked. So thieves figured out that there was on proof the doors were locked if they simple broke the glass without even trying the door to see if it was locked.
And, it feels like there are perverse incentives to over-report crime when it is convenient. I recall reading Twitter posts during the "crime surge" of the pandemic where the police department indicated they were too overwhelmed by a car jacking to deal with other crimes, so be careful out there!
I really wish there was someone reporting on exactly what you have called out, that the reporting has probably changed significantly, and that deserves scrutiny.
Phone stolen. Go through usual steps. A few weeks later, someone contacts me, "hey, I was sold what seems to be your phone on eBay..." (I had put a message on it). "I was wondering if you'd got a replacement, and be willing to unlock the phone. I just bought it..". Points for gumption, I guess. I said "How do I know you weren't the thief..."
He reached out to the seller, who initially refused to exchange the phone. "I am in contact with the legit owner of the phone, and will give him your info so he can pass on to the police". Seller exchanged phone. This guy then gave me the info and listing anyway.
My phone. IMEI had two digits transposed. Looked at the guys other listings, and it was a warehouse of stolen goods, effectively: hundreds of Macs and other laptops, mostly "no accessories, no charger", hundreds of phones, "no cables, locked", and so on. All the phones had invalid IMEIs unless you un-transposed the same two digits that were transposed in mine (plausible deniability I guess? You search for IMEI, no hits. But it looks legit because he's willing to share it, and can say 'oops, typo').
Go to the police. They were supremely uninterested. "Well, he probably wasn't the guy who actually stole your phone". I pointed out that I thought it was still a crime to sell stolen goods, even if you didn't sell them, and if you're selling dozens or more near current MBPs for $300ish "without any accessories, may be locked", then what is your explanation?
Still didn't care.
I did my part, short of going to the home nearby and pouring water in his gas tank, which was tempting.
Violent crime and property crime victimizations both dropped over 70% between 1993 and 2022.
Your view of the situation doesn't reflect the reality. This is the case for most Americans: people think crime has increased, even though it has plummeted.
Propaganda works.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/what-the-...
Edit: fixed some wrong calculations.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in...
The government chose to put these people in cages, regardless of it perhaps being sensible policy agreed upon by the public. The responsibility of paying for the cages to put people in should rest fully on the government. It's quite perverse to take away someone's freedom and then charge them for the "privilege" as if it's some type of consensual arrangement. The same goes for criminal "court costs" and even "permit fees".
The true cost of government needs to reside with the government rather than being externalized. If that makes certain government activities "too expensive" and there is no political will to pay for their true costs, then those activities should be scaled back to exist within their means.
50$ a day is insane and must be impossible for 99% of inmates to ever repay.
I’m not even sure this is simply a “rent” — unlike renting an apartment or a house (shelter), while the prison is also shelter, it also has to be 24x7 staffed with guards (and likely other personnel like a medical clinic). There’s fixed costs like utilities which probably don’t vary much based on population (lighting and heating), and variable costs like food, water and waste management.
It’s certainly a bit crazy to charge someone for 7 years if they only serve 70 days, but I see some logic to charging per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”.
Arguably, it generates the opposite behavior in some folks: "Well, my circumstances are bad, so I may as well always do bad since there's no upside to participating in society since I'm permanently screwed."
Why? They are not using it and have no choice in the matter. It's like having to pay rent until the next renter arrives, which you have no control over.
More like paying while next renter is already paying and the renter after him and the renter after him.
Just jail everybody to 10 years release them after a week and get the money the next 10 years.
Everywhere else this would be called a scam and exploitation.
> Because of that, the judge sentenced Hoffman to seven years in prison. She served 10 months after the judge allowed her to participate in a youth offender boot camp.
My English comprehension is failing. She got seven years because of what...?
... they have no liability or obligation - and will go to court to fight having to pay you for the damage they did.
Their "argument" is that liability is on the target of their warrant, which doesn't answer awkward questions like "what if the target is never convicted of a crime" and "the target didn't make you raid the wrong house..."
AMENDMENT XIII
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40157954
In response to this said parties lobby heavily for more enslavement. This is often accomplished by over policing minorities especially for drug related offenses, turning the penal system deliberately into slide into interested parties pockets instead of a ladder up, setting policy with an eye to increasing costs as opposed to benefiting society.
In at least a few cases judges were literally caught selling children into slavery. In exchange for kickbacks from a private prison company they were sentencing offenders to maximum sentences.
The bad thing is that were someone unjustly enslaved merely for the color of their skin we should all rush to break their chains. Someone enslaved by a system which shook them down in hopes of finding drugs and then ruined their lives there is no sympathy because they are the villain. America never ended slavery they just found a way to justify it.
That's what I mean by rhetorical device.
Would you agree that one difference between modern penal mandatory labor (modern slavery as you would say) is that for most prisoners, their bondage ends at the end of their prison sentence? And that they are not legally owned as property like in chattel slavery?
They paid for their cell already. The bill for a room they didn't inhabit is usurious. You book a room for a weekend, they charge you for six years, you'd complain too.
I know, just a troll, I should learn to leave them to die on the vine.