steveklabnik 10 days ago [-]
Note that one of the co-authors of this paper, Amit, is the author of https://www.tockos.org/

This paper is sort of a successor to https://sing.stanford.edu/site/publications/levy-plos15-tock... , a previous paper on this topic. After publication, Amit solved many of the issues presented there. It was previously discussed on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14105884

Some more context https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/655816/ownership_is_t...

Amit left even more context just now on /r/rust: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/75xwib/the_case_for_w...

frankmcsherry 10 days ago [-]
Some minor pedantry that winds me up a bit, and that I thought I'd try to correct:

> Note that one of the co-authors of this paper, Amit, is the author of https://www.tockos.org/

The definite article "the" precludes the existence of other authors, who (from personal experience) can get wound up by language like this.

You may have meant "author of the web site", in which case I have no opinion, but if you meant "author of the project" I'd totally use the indefinite article "an".

Also all of the work is very interesting and people should read it.

steveklabnik 10 days ago [-]
Yes, good call, thank you! I sometimes forget this distinction. You're totally correct that more people than Amit work on Tock, for sure, and I don't want to exclude their hard work.
jp_rider 10 days ago [-]
If you haven't already, check out Redox OS [1,2]. It's a microkernel written in Rust.

Here's a good interview with the developer [3].

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Redox/

[2] https://redox-os.org/

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5JgMlNE8o

Animats 10 days ago [-]
That's very nice. It's approaching the QNX level of microkernel.

One unusual feature of QNX is that the kernel doesn't parse strings anywhere. There's a "resource manager", but that's a process. Programs register with the resource manager for a piece of the pathname namespace ("/dev", "/fs", etc.) and then get open requests sent to them when a pathname starts with their part of the namespace. Parsing creates a large attack surface, and getting it out of the kernel is a win.

QNX tries to avoid variable-length objects in the kernel. Messages are variable length and copied by the kernel, but from one user space to another, not queued in kernel space. Most of the ways a kernel can run out of memory are avoided in QNX. If the kernel is out of resources, some system calls return errors, but the kernel doesn't crash.

If you're doing a kernel in Rust, it's helpful to think that way. Rust doesn't handle out-of-memory conditions well.

kbenson 8 days ago [-]
> Rust doesn't handle out-of-memory conditions well.

Do you happen to know languages that do handle out of memory conditions well? That seems like an interesting topic. If I understand how it's done in C, I wouldn't call that "well", but it does provide the mechanisms for doing it (which is more than can be said for all languages). Language level features (or coding styles in C that could be implemented at a language level elsewhere) that provide for increased and intuitive control would be interesting.

Animats 7 days ago [-]
Ada is one of the few languages that takes out-of-memory conditions seriously. The exception Storage_Error is raised.

Java, C# and Microsoft's common runtime have out-of-memory exceptions, but I'm not sure how reliable they are in a limited-memory environment. They're more like "GC isn't helping much" exceptions.

nickpsecurity 10 days ago [-]
This is good work. I enjoyed reading it. I wonder, though, why Muen separation kernel wasn't mentioned in related work on kernels in safe languages. It uses the SPARK language so that it's provably immune to a number of defects. The Ada compilers can also give you as little or much runtime as you want with several "profiles" available. Muen uses the "minimal, Zero-Runtime" profile. Rust improves on Ada and SPARK with the affine types giving temporal safety plus more flexible model for safe concurrency than Ravenscar. CompSci work shows one can probably do that and info-flow security with contracts but that would be extra, specialist work for Ada/SPARK versus what's built-in to Rust already. Verbose, too.

https://muen.codelabs.ch/

When I about the Rust kernels, I assumed there would be some trusted components in there which could screw them up on assurance side. Aside from full formal verification, one thing someone might want to try is writing those pieces in SPARK like Muen does. Make a direct port from any proven SPARK to Rust source. Alternatively, compile the SPARK into executable code that Rust calls with its FFI since C code can call SPARK code. Then, those untrusted portions are shown safe with one set of rules while the rest is shown safe with Rust's compiler. Optionally, convert those to an intermediate language of CompCert or CakeML compilers for certified compilation. This is how my Brute-Force Assurance model would attempt to handle each's limitations in a kernel project.

Note: Only problem with using SPARK for that is the person doing it probably has to buy a license if the Rust kernel in question isn't GPL. SPARK is only free for use with GPL code. Frama-C is another option one might use to avoid that but SPARK is stronger offering.

pjmlp 10 days ago [-]
If you see from my discussions, many in the community (not the Rust designers) seem to be unaware, willing or not, of all the great work that came before Rust.

Rust is making a great progress infecting other languages with the idea of having affine types for resource management and concurrency is possible, just that the ergonomics still need some fine tuning.

No need to glace over the ideas of other strong type systems programming languages.

pjmlp 10 days ago [-]
Oh well, not being a native speaker only now I realized that the last sentence is the complete opposite of what I intended to say, and the edit is button is gone now.

What I actually wanted to say, is that it would be worthwhile for the community to learn what has been done before, like the examples referred by nicksecurity.

comex 10 days ago [-]
Heh… that approach is probably workable, but it sounds like such a hack to use two completely unrelated programming languages to get two different levels of safety. It would be so cool if someone wrote a language/compiler which is to Rust as SPARK is to Ada.
nickpsecurity 10 days ago [-]
It definitely is a hack. I've encouraged others with expertise to create SPARK-like tech for a Rust subset among other things. The problem is such experts are hard to find and it took SPARK 10-20 years to get to thus point. There's also a lot of verification tooling for C and Java especially that would have to be ported.

So, I came up with a concept called Brute Force Assurance that tries to reduce verification from an expensive, expert problem to a pile of cheap labor problem. The idea is a language like Scheme or Nim expresses the algorithms in lowest-common denominator form that’s automatically converted to at least equivalent C, Rust, Ada, and SPARK. Their tools… esp static analyzers or test generators in C, borrow-checker in Rust, and SPARK’s prover… all run on the generated code. Errors found there are compared against the original program with it changed for valid errors. Iterate until no errors and then move on to next work item. Eventually, one might use certified compiler on one of these forms (probably C).

What you think?

pflanze 10 days ago [-]
Hey, this is an extension of what I'm planning to work on, which is a translator from Scheme enriched with lifetime and type information to Rust. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15286945
zellyn 10 days ago [-]
Makes sense.

1) Read "Beautiful Racket". 2) Implement it.

:)

touisteur 9 days ago [-]
For what it's worth I hear work on porting some of rust's memory-ownership concepts to Spark are going well at AdaCore. This should allow pointers to be integrated in the Spark subset of proveable Ada.
nickpsecurity 9 days ago [-]
It didn't look great when I asked about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/6avcy4/odds_of_ruststy...

I do hope you're right with them figuring it out. It's a killer feature Ada and/or SPARK need. The alternative is basically separation logic. That isn't going mainstream or significant commercial haha. For me, I prefer both to adopt each others' strengths to increase diversity in batteries-included, safe/secure, systems space.

Sag0Sag0 10 days ago [-]
I tried to write a kernel in rust but reverted back to c. I just feel that it is not very nice systems language. The entire time i felt like i was fighting to manipulate the language into doing something it wasn't supposed to do.
gwerbin 10 days ago [-]
Would you be able to go into more detail on this? An example maybe? It might be useful for someone like me who's "interested in Rust" but hasn't tried it (yet).
steveklabnik 10 days ago [-]
There's also a lot of us who do enjoy writing kernels in Rust; https://os.phil-opp.com/ goes through the start of ones for x86_64, and really shows off some nice features about Rust.
Sag0Sag0 10 days ago [-]
The amount of unsafe code necessary for low level work, the difficulty in sending a stream of bytes to an io port and the innate complexity of the language. C's philosophy is everything is a series of bits which you can manipulate at will. Rust's is the same except you have to through a huge amount of hoops first to make things "safe".

Things like converting a String to an i64 are a pain. There is large amount of boilerplate code needed.

All in all this is a personal preference. I prefer some unsafeness in c to (in my opinion) the constant inconvenience of programming in rust.

comex 10 days ago [-]
I know it's just one example, and you're reporting more of a general impression, but since you mentioned converting a String to an i64… well, in what way?

If you mean reading the bytes of the string as an i64, that's

    unsafe { *(s.as_ptr() as *const i64) }
...which is a bit more verbose than C's

    *(int64_t *) ptr
but not that verbose, especially given that there will often be more code in the unsafe block. On the other hand, in C that's often technically undefined behavior due to strict aliasing, so to get strictly conformant code you have to use memcpy. Rust has no strict aliasing.

(I wouldn't actually recommend the above Rust code, because it doesn't verify that the string's length matches i64 - but neither does C, so it's a fair comparison. More idiomatic wrappers can be found in third-party crates like byteorder or pod.)

If you mean casting the pointer to the bytes to an i64, that's

    s.as_ptr() as i64
which doesn't seem verbose. (No unsafe needed in that case.)
oconnor663 10 days ago [-]
There are safe interfaces for this stuff too. The byteorder crate (not in the standard library, but widely used) has:

    let i = NativeEndian::read_i64(...);
Or if you're literally parsing a string of digits:

    let i: Option<i64> = digits.parse();
The `parse` method on strings is a particularly smooth piece of trait system magic.
makapuf 9 days ago [-]
> to get strictly conformant [C] code you have to use memcpy couldn't you use an union there ?

> Rust has no strict aliasing. does that mean that rust cannot optimize for things C could ? (real quesiton I don't know rust)

oconnor663 9 days ago [-]
> does that mean that rust cannot optimize for things C could?

Here's my best understanding of the situation. Someone who actually understands the compiler might have to correct me:

- Pointers in unsafe Rust don't do any strict aliasing optimizations, which C compilers sometimes do. The Rust memory model isn't fully specified, though, and the status quo seems to be related to not actually passing type information to LLVM. Not clear whether this will change in the future. There's some discussion of it here: http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2016/05/27/the-...

- References in safe Rust (the vast majority of code) have much stronger aliasing information than pointers do in C. This is one of the core features of Rust, that references that allow mutation are guaranteed not to be aliased. I think the status quo is that this information isn't passed to LLVM because of some LLVM bugs getting in the way, but that it should start working in the near future. When all of this is working, I think it should produce code that's faster than C, in the same way that Fortran sometimes does.

comex 9 days ago [-]
You’re on target. Just to clarify: even references (“safe”) do not need type-based alias analysis (aka “strict aliasing”, which is what GCC calls the flag enabling/disabling it). All Rust references have semantics similar to C “restrict”: there should never be any conflicting writes from other sources, because immutable references imply the data shouldn’t change at all (nobody has a mutable reference), and mutable references are exclusive. (Types with interior mutability are an exception, but the compiler knows what types those are and special-cases them.) So the compiler can assume “no alias” most of the time with no need to care about types.

The formal specification of rules for unsafe code hasn’t been written yet, because, well, it’s an ambitious goal! Even the C standard is sometimes not really clear about what counts as undefined behavior; Rust wants to do better, while being more permissive, and offering a ‘sanitizer’ tool to verify correctness at runtime. And implement this on top of LLVM, which was written by other people, is designed for C’s rules, and, like other compilers, doesn’t even get those right in every case (even when the spec is clear).

For now, the effort is still fairly tentative. But I’m pretty confident that type-based aliasing analysis will never be a thing in Rust, so it will always be legal to read data through ‘wrong-typed’ pointers, both raw pointers and references (as long as it’s valid data, alignment is right, etc.).

Actually, I’m embarrassed: my code from earlier isn’t actually legal in all cases. It requires the pointer to be correctly aligned, which in the case of String it probably will be, but it’s not guaranteed. Meh.

comex 9 days ago [-]
Regarding union: Say you have

    char *p
You definitely can’t do

    union { char *cp; int64_t *ip; } u;
    u.cp = p;
    return *u.ip; // bad
...because the undefined part isn’t casting the pointer, but reading through it. Nor may you read through a pointer to union, if the memory was not already typed as that union type:

    union { char c[8]; int64_t i; } *up;
    up = (void *) p;
    return up->i; // bad
(...well, you probably shouldn’t, anyway. One of the clauses in the C standard seems to condone it, but a WG document[1] suggests that the clause is just misworded, meant to allow accessing a pointer to a structure field with the field’s type, but allowing the opposite instead. And suggests that it will be fixed in future standards. Who knows, though.)

You can do this:

    union { char c[8]; int64_t i; } u;
    for (int i = 0; i < 8; i++)
        u.c[i] = p[i];
    return up->i; // ok
But that’s more verbose than memcpying directly into an int64_t, and the compiler will optimize both versions into a plain load (as long as the target arch supports unaligned loads), so there’s not much point doing it that way.

If your data was declared as a union in the first place, of course, that’s different. But the OP was asking about strings, so I assumed the input in the C case was just a char *.

[1] http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1520.htm

Rusky 10 days ago [-]
Those sound like relatively straightforward things to write safe and convenient wrappers for. Obviously not as barebones as C but certainly not constantly fighting the language.
Sag0Sag0 10 days ago [-]
True. I suppose i just prefer the bare bonededness.
hossbeast 10 days ago [-]
This slogan could sell a lot of T shirts.
TrueSelfDao 10 days ago [-]
Would you say there is a certain level of abstraction above which rust seemed to work somewhat smoothly?
Sag0Sag0 10 days ago [-]
Honestly i would not know. I have only used rust in a very low level context.
alexnewman 10 days ago [-]
Could the problem be that you have very little rust experience and a lot of experience writing c?
naasking 10 days ago [-]
There's another OS that used some aspects of safe code injected into the kernel: Pebble [1]

[1] https://www.usenix.org/conference/workshop-embedded-systems/...

jpfr 9 days ago [-]
The easiest way forward for a rust kernel is not to start from scratch, but to port Minix3. Minix is an open source micro-kernel somewhat similar to QNX. The kernel itself is on the order of 4000 lines of code. [1] Though small, Minix has quite a long history, is super-stable and looks like a sweet spot in kernel development.

The kernel could be ported piecemeal while always being able to boot during the transition. Similar to how remacs is slowly porting emacs over to rust [2].

And on top of that, you can use the rump kernel approach to run the device drivers, TCP/IP, etc. from NetBSD. So you immediately get a fully functional OS.

[1] http://www.minix3.org/

[2] https://github.com/Wilfred/remacs

eggestad 9 days ago [-]
Let me be the contrarian to make the case for NOT writing a new kernel at all (no matter what language)

Many a year ago (1997-2000) I was working on banking and finance software. I was a part of that breed of programmers that loath cobol and wanted everything to be in an object oriented language. (C++ was the poison of choice at the time.) The was a particular evangelical group of us in this company.

With this group I found my self in a meeting with one of the old timers, business graduate, his jobs was to explain to us CS diaper babies how banking and finance actually worked when we wrote the software. (surprisingly NOT we're actually clueless about the bigger purpose of what a core banking system is fore (other than the obvious)).

After patently listening to us with the facial expression that we're all diaper babies, he asked a rather pointed question:

OK, supposed we did this, write a new system from scratch using OO programming and all the other industry standard components as of today, what new features to the end user can you build? Translated, when he was going to walk over to the bank to sell it, what would be his pitch?

I got the message, what new pitch would the bank get to get new customers? Or simplified, when was the last time you went in to a prospecting new bank and asked 'What programming language or paradigm is your core banking system written in?'

I don't give a shit about what language a kernel is written in, only what the system calls do. Please tell me what system call you can write in RUST that you can't write in C.

The first time the problem arose when it was necessary to translate one HW assembly to a new CPU, the people at the time took a look at the problem and asked the question. What is easier, write an assembler A to assembler B translator, or write the kernel in the most minimal language possible that then can be compiled for an infinite HW architectures. The answer was simple; C.

The answer is equally easy now. There is no system call you can implement in RUST that you can't implement in C.

Just like core banking, finance and insurance systems are still in COBOL, the OS kernels will be for the foreseeable future in C.

The case for writing a kernel in RUST should be because a need a fun hobby. The thing is that a proof of concept kernel is done when you've doen 10% of the work. The remaining 90% is just mind numbingly boring shit that you'll never complete. Even if you do, what's the end user's justification to switch?

On the issue of micro kernel vs monolithic kernel, I'll most humbly refer to Linus Torvalds previous statements.

TJ

kbenson 8 days ago [-]
I find it interesting that even though your story is about banking and finance software, you did not once mention safety or security. That doesn't magically make it a good idea to start from scratch, but unless you have a perfect security record, it should definitely be part of the deciding criteria. For something like the kernel, well they are still dealing with problems in C today. [1]

1: https://www.exploit-db.com/search/?action=search&q=kernel&g-... (answer the captcha and search again)

ratmice 7 days ago [-]
> Please tell me what system call you can write in RUST that you can't write in C.

One that doesn't suffer from context switch penalty, but still provides separation of the kernel and the process?

unlmtd1 10 days ago [-]
Can we please just kill PDF? Have those ppl heard of HTML? Mind boggling!
mtgx 10 days ago [-]
Someone send this to the Google Fuchsia team.
pjmlp 10 days ago [-]
I guess Google is somehow aware of safety.

Regarding Fuchsia, the C code is being migrated to modern C++, the TCP/IP stack and a few filesystem drivers are written in Go, and there are some other small pieces in Rust.

Brillo was to be Android native layer + C++ Frameworks, it became Android Things instead, with the ability of writing userspace drivers in Java.

ChromeOS requires disabling security to access the native layer.

On Android the NDK main goals are only for performance or accessing libraries written in C or C++ into Java.

Rusky 10 days ago [-]
Unfortunately even modern C++ brings none of the benefits described in the article, because it defaults to unsafe code. Most of the Rust code from the Fuchsia team is to support Rust in applications, not in any code that needs to be trusted.
pjmlp 10 days ago [-]
When used together with another language high level language, C++ takes the role of low level unsafe blocks. So there wouldn't exist too much difference with a pure Rust application full of unsafe blocks.

Which is the approach taken by Google on Android and ChromeOS.

My understanding is that Fuchsia would follow the same approach, using only Dart for applications.

Are there any examples of Rust applications in Fucshia?

pcwalton 10 days ago [-]
You can't generally inline unsafe C++ into other languages (like, literally in the same file, or method) the way you can inline unsafe blocks into Rust.

This increased friction invariably leads to C++ folks making a lot more code unsafe than needs to be.

pjmlp 10 days ago [-]
True, but tooling is much more relevant than the ability of inlining code.

It took me more time to make something usable with Gtk-rs, than it usually takes me to write JNI bindings on Android.

I used to complain about the way Google manages the NDK, quite easy to find if you search for them.

However, in the last couple of months I came to realize that it actually makes sense, it is their way to keep Android safe while keeping the door open to write some performance critical sections of code.

pcwalton 9 days ago [-]
Not if your goal is security. Android is not a particularly secure operating system. The JVM is not treated as a security boundary.
pjmlp 9 days ago [-]
Which is exactly how we got here.

If perfect security implies less productivity, security conscious people abide by "good enough" to appeal to the masses.

pcwalton 6 days ago [-]
We were talking about the kernel. The internals of the kernel don't need to "appeal to the masses". Nor do the low-level system libraries.

You are trying to argue that C++ for system libraries plus a high-level language for apps is as secure as an all Rust app. This is empirically not true. Virtually the entire security community disagrees with you.

Rusky 9 days ago [-]
> So there wouldn't exist too much difference with a pure Rust application full of unsafe blocks.

There would be a massive difference, unless you're proposing they write the kernel in a high level language with little bits of C++ thrown in for the unsafe parts, which notably is not what they're already doing.

The point is to make kernel code safe by default, with a small amount of unsafe in it, all wrapped up in a safe interface for the rest of the kernel to use.

banachtarski 10 days ago [-]
Be prepared for issues with ABI incompatibility and all that. Rust is a low level-language, but IMO not a systems language (disclaimer: I tried rust extensively over a 2 week period, background is a blend of C, C++ and Haskell from which it draws a lot of influence).
bluejekyll 10 days ago [-]
I’m sorry. But claiming Rust is not a systems language is akin to claiming a Volvo is not a car.

If you don’t consider Rust to be a systems language, then you’ve got a very skewed perception of what a systems language is.

You seem to be alluding to Rusts ABI potentially being an issue, and that’s a fair criticism. Where a stable ABI needs to be exported, Rust supports the C FFI, like almost all other languages.

frankmcsherry 10 days ago [-]
I've had a bunch of issues getting clean statements about the ABI that actually result in usable guarantees.

For example, while you are advised to put `#[repr(C)]` on types you want to have a known layout for FFI, to the best of my understanding this decoration isn't included for generic types like tuples, slices, or `Vec`. Afaiu, Rust reserves the right to change the layout of `(T1, T2)` for `#[repr(C)]` types `T1` and `T2` on a build-by-build basis, which makes a lot of the core types unsuitable for FFI.

Anyhow, that's my issue with it as a "systems" language. I can't (yet) write code that compiles down to the minimal operations I believe the computer can do, without re-inventing a non-trivial hunk of the standard library. Or, if I can, I can't find the language in the spec that ensures I won't have to fix things.

pcwalton 10 days ago [-]
I don't believe that Rust slices and tuples have unstable ABIs. I guess that isn't documented as well as it could be, though. File an issue perhaps?

Isn't std::vector in C++ equally unspecified, though?

frankmcsherry 10 days ago [-]
My understanding of the field-reordering work is that it applies to tuples. From http://camlorn.net/posts/April%202017/rust-struct-field-reor...:

> The 2000-foot version: Rust structs, enums, and tuples are now automatically smaller in some cases. It's possible for the compiler to work with types whose in-memory field order doesn't match that of your source code.

This would mean (again, as I understand it) that you cannot rely on the order of elements in a tuple, if for example you wanted to pass a `&[(T1,T2)]` to some other code (even other Rust code, but built separately).

Edit: serious follow up: You've been working with Servo, and I'm assuming at various moments you (pl) need to map in shared libraries that Servo wasn't built with (e.g. codecs, whatever). Do you avoid Rust types in these FFI interfaces, do you rewrap everything, or have pervasive repr(C) type analogues instead?

It might be that I'm the only person in the world trying to do Rust-to-Rust FFI, but it feels like (i) it isn't that far from being really tasteful, but (ii) it has a bunch of issues that make it seem that no one has ever tested it (e.g. default allocators being different, weak guarantees about layout).

banachtarski 8 days ago [-]
your volvo is a car. just not a sports vehicle. i write kernel modules and other "system" libraries. Is the problem that my definition of a "systems language" is too narrow for you? Yea you could say we resort back to the C FFI whenever i need to think about dynamic linkage with modules that may or MAY NOT have been compiled with the same version of rust but jesus is it a tedious process for me.
bluejekyll 8 days ago [-]
> Is the problem that my definition of a "systems language" is too narrow for you?

I'm suggesting that the exclusion of Rust from that category is wrong. Even with it as narrow as you just defined it, Rust still fits into that category.

Is it the best systems language available at the moment? It depends on your context. With TockOS, if you can use that, I would say it is. With Redox and other full OS impls, it's clearly capable as a systems language. With examples of kernel modules for Linux written in Rust, it's again clear that it can work in that environment. By excluding it from that category, it continues a line of FUD against Rust and in favor of C.

> Yea you could say we resort back to the C FFI whenever i need to think about dynamic linkage

Yeah, this is a bummer. And for the foreseeable This is probably going to be the case (C++ has this same issue, but to less of an extent because it is generally easier to flow between C++ and C).

> jesus is it a tedious process for me.

Yeah, again, where a strong ABI is needed it's a problem, but there are people working on some solutions to make this easier, for example:

C headers to Rust, https://docs.rs/bindgen/0.30.0/bindgen/ C headers from Rust, https://docs.rs/rusty-cheddar/0.3.3/cheddar/

(I'm not sure of the status of the latter, but bindgen is getting a lot of attention right now).

Ar-Curunir 10 days ago [-]
2 weeks is a bit short to judge anything by...
banachtarski 8 days ago [-]
It's enough if I'm using it for the EXPRESS purpose of trying to evaluate a language. If your language can't provide me with enough compelling things after two weeks of trying to like it, I'm going to move on.
banachtarski 8 days ago [-]
author's note: lot of butthurt downvotes. HN reaaaaally seems to love Rust.