I've always wondered why we don't see sherpas holding all the climbing records, given how much better adapted they are to their environments than most other mountaineers. Maybe this is the beginning of a new trend! The sentiment is at least echoed in the article:
> In the 2015 newswire, Green quoted Dawa Gyalje Sherpa: "We are hoping as young climbers, to take climbing in Nepal to a new level. All of us have climbed much bigger mountains but always with foreign climbers. We want to show that we are not just porters on the mountain, climbing only for our livelihood, but we are interested in climbing because we enjoy it, too.... We are the young generation of Sherpa climbers but we are looking to the future of Nepal and Sherpas also."
intrepidhero 1194 days ago [-]
Sherpas were on all the big western expeditions that I know of. Their names are just usually dropped when talking about it, which is a shame. I recently read Krakauer's Into Thin Air and appreciated that he treated the sherpas on the expedition as fellow humans. They figured as important as anyone else in the story. He was also careful when talking about past climbs to mention all the climbers, sherpa and otherwise.
Very interesting book for me. I knew (know?) very little about mountaineering.
strstr 1194 days ago [-]
For a long time, both Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary evaded the question of who summitted Everest first. They reached the top as a team.
Most of the "forgetting" seems to happen when it comes to communicating about larger, less notable expeditions.
“The mountaineers were accompanied […] by 362 porters, so that the expedition in the end amounted to over four hundred men, including twenty Sherpa guides from Tibet and Nepal, with a total weight of ten thousand pounds of baggage”
I don’t know the details of that expedition, but typically, the sherpas make multiple trips up and down the mountain to bring the necessary material up to height, so that those paying can relatively comfortably acclimatize at height. Climbing Everest almost always is a team effort.
Even if you ignore those porters , those “twenty Sherpa guides from Tibet and Nepal”, IMO, deserve to be mentioned there more than Jan Morris, who didn’t make it further up the mountain than 22,000 feet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Morris).
(and aside: ten thousand pounds of baggage seems very low to me. That’s less than 30 pounds per porter ⇒ I guess that’s what made it to the highest camp)
HotHotLava 1194 days ago [-]
While the Sherpa were crucial to success of the expedition, it's also important not to jump to the other extreme and underestimate the contributions of the British party. This was not a "guided" expedition where the clients were just going up in the wind shadow. Back in 1953, it's pretty unlikely that sherpa party could have summitted on their own.
If I remember correctly (it's a while since I read Hillary's account of the expedition), only three of the sherpa were able to go up to camp 4, and two of those them had to turn back due to altitude sickness. Tenzing Norgay did not have the technical knowledge to operate the oxygen systems. Also, crampons were far less advanced back then, so the mountaineers were also responsible for cutting steps every few days for all the routes that the porters were using to haul gear.
DeBraid 1194 days ago [-]
To emphasize your point, I'm well familiar w/ Sir Edmund, but TIL about Tenzing Norgay, thank you.
In New Zealand, despite our somewhat child-like at times desire to be known on the world stage, we all largely know and acknowledge about Tenzing Norgay as well as Hillary - which is exactly what Sir Ed wanted.
dbmikus 1194 days ago [-]
They only have a photo of Norgay at the summit because Norgay didn't know how to take a picture of Hillary.
Kind of ironic to me that the less famous one is the only one with the photo! Ha!
mthoms 1194 days ago [-]
Source? As I recall, Edmund stated he just didn't think of it in the heat (actually: cold) of the moment. They were only on the summit for a few minutes.
I'd be very surprised if a man of Tenzing's calibre and achievements could not figure out something so trivial.
Edit: I've found some citations that support your point, I apologize.
Although, I'd add (a) Tenzing's account states that he offered to take a photo but was declined. And (b) a more fair description would be "because he had never used a camera before" rather than "didn't know how to work a camera".
The later suggesting a lack of intelligence or civility (though I'm sure that wasn't your intent), I'm probably just nitpicking :-).
outside1234 1193 days ago [-]
There is also mysticism in some Asian cultures about photos and taking other peoples photos around stealing souls etc.
This potentially could be a reason as well that he wasn’t brave enough to admit.
quelltext 1193 days ago [-]
But at the same time he allowed a photo of himself to be taken (his soul be stolen)?
That theory doesn't make sense to me.
Tarsul 1194 days ago [-]
funny thing is that the first "who wants to be a millionaire" winner in Germany had him as million [Deutsche Mark] question ("who climbed the mount everest with Edmund Hillary" or something like that). And that's why his name has always stuck in my head. However, it also goes to show that he is less famous than Hillary.
sharadov 1194 days ago [-]
Hillary did a lot for the Sherpa community, and he rightfully gave Tenzing the acknowledgement that he deserved, one of the first western mountaineers to do so.
saiya-jin 1194 days ago [-]
If you go to Everest region in Nepal, there are schools and even airport built by him just above Namche Bazaar... truly great contribution back. He literally spent decades of his later life trying to develop mainly Sherpa communities which lived in brutal poverty, largely left on their own by central government. Let's not forget Nepal was and still is one of the poorest countries in the world. Very few benefit from tourism, and money Sherpa earn is brutal compared to rest of non-mountaineering population.
Basically you either join Gurkha and fight for British, go for mountaineering career, become a corrupt government official (which you can't just join due to nepotism) or try to leave if you have money for it.
This 'critique' goes both ways and kind of show its natural to humans - when both Tenzing and Hillary came back to India from Nepal (Nepal didn't have an international airport back then, and it took quite a bit of time to built one, all expeditions went through India's sea ports) - Hillary was almost completely ignored, and Tenzing was the only one to be celebrated.
I understand the motivations ie due to past shameful english colonialism, plus good old nationalism. But its like that everywhere. It doesn't make it any more acceptable these days obviously.
tweetle_beetle 1194 days ago [-]
I'd say that the days of Sherpas being completely invisible have passed. There is now something of a noble savage mystique around them, unhelpful in its own way. You get brownie points for virtue signalling about your gratitude to Sherpas today. They often get to keep gear that their clients no longer need after their trip, for example. Hopefully their status continues to rise.
What is somewhat sadder is the fate of the porters on which almost every expedition and trek, except the purest of pure self-supported alpine expeditions, still relies. These are poor people who are typically from the lowlands, acting as sole breadwinners for their families, doing difficult, dangerous manual labor at high altitude without beneficial genetic adaptations or decent clothing. There are some good small charities trying to improve their conditions, for example https://www.canepal.org.uk/
furyg3 1194 days ago [-]
> except the purest of pure self-supported alpine expeditions
Do these exist? From what I understand Sherpas are the ones building the routes every year... So even if you hike alone, pack all of your stuff into base camp alone (good luck! many trips), carry all your own ladders and ropes, and pack all of your stuff up to each subsequent camp alone... you're still hiking on routes that Sherpas built at the beginning of the season...
tweetle_beetle 1194 days ago [-]
The use of Sherpas to open routes is restricted to a relatively small number of the most popular and lucrative routes, usually in Nepal. Most "proper" climbers look down on any notion of routes bring prepared - fixed equipment, ladders, etc.
There are a good number of expeditions of a higher standard of mountain ethics which still happen and still many new routes to claim in the Himalayas. But these are far removed from the world of the stereotype of the type of person who wants to climb Everest who get all the media attention - look up Nick Cienski for a good example of virtue signalling, ego and narcism.
If you're interested, The Alpine Journal is an excellent resource for capturing all the lesser known alpinists doing amazing things with little to no media attention and a tiny budget. Among the low key mountaineers the is even a bit of a culture of not reporting first ascents, due to the bureaucratic nature of permits - allowed to climb one peak, but not one next door. Those in the know, who are looking for a more pure climbing experience, prefer India and Pakistan where permits are easier to obtain, there are virtually no climbers and hundreds of new routes to do in unspoilt valleys.
Very few locals historically went above base camp, it used to be really tricky to even get them to deliver goods to base camp. They were afraid, always broke previously agreed contract, tried to negotiating extra money. Plus had ridiculously bad clothing/shoes for such an environment.
Basically every expedition in Pakistan in the past struggled with this, and they even had an additional budget for this.
sebmellen 1194 days ago [-]
That's very nice to hear, and I'll check the book out.
While on a cruise ship last July (well, 2019) I made friends with a Nepalese security screw and we talked about Nepal and their family occupations. It's very sad to hear of how disposably sherpas are treated on the vanity tours by unskilled foreign climbers. Basically the sherpas end up dragging along their clients and they face outsized risk on the way.
bitL 1194 days ago [-]
And yet Krakauer had no issues throwing a guy, who tried to save some of the members of his team, under the bus when Krakauer messed up, and turned a hero into a villain.
ceocoder 1194 days ago [-]
Jon Krakauer has responded to Anatoli Boukreev here[0], it seems as like most things in life, there is more nuance this than just hero villain dichotomy.
That Kazakh person can't defend himself any longer and Krakauer's story is highly suspicious due to glaring holes/omissions - perfect knowledge of the incoming storm yet deciding to move forward, "hallucinated all the way down" as a defense for not helping Beck Weathers, sleeping in a tent while Anatoli was saving clients, expecting from the barely surviving Kazakh climber a perfect knowledge of English etc. Krakauer is a talented writer writing compelling stories but his throwing mud on a deceased climber who managed to save all his clients in the death zone that night is just disgusting.
saiya-jin 1194 days ago [-]
This. He writes good, but its kind of accepted in climbing community that he really messed up with Everest disaster, lied, tried to blame others for his own fails etc.
arcticfox 1194 days ago [-]
Source? Because his response to The Climb, linked above, seems pretty damning.
I believe there is some form of memory bias or bias in reporting by the media. If you look at the record books, you will find that most records are held by Sherpas. For example, more than 70 records for Mount Everest is held my Sherpas (or other Nepalese climbers) [1], far more than climbers from any other country.
Apa Sherpa, one of the most prolific Sherpas, holds many records [2]. Interesting fact he was Sherpa to Peter Hillary (Edmund's son).
It takes a lot of disposable income to be a serious climber. Top Western climbers are either well-off or funded by the well-off (patrons, companies, or even governments sometimes).
This funding has historically not been available directly to Sherpas. That is partially because they did not have platforms to influence the purchasing decisions of a large audience (the main reason companies fund full-time climbers). And it’s partially because Western cultures tended not to value indigenous people the same way it valued their own citizens.
Both of those have been changing a lot in the past decade, and it’s nice to see younger Sherpas able to take advantage of that.
pcthrowaway 1194 days ago [-]
> It takes a lot of disposable income to be a serious climber.
If you're not specifically talking about high-altitude climbing, then I'd argue this is wrong. There are famous *serious* climbers like Fred Beckey who managed to make climbing their entire lives on next to no income. Lots of serious climbers build up their rack from "booty" (taking material abandoned by other climbers in a range of situations, often bordering on questionably unethical), live in a van or a tent, hitchhike, etc.
franzb 1194 days ago [-]
The climbing permit for Everest alone costs $11000.
pcthrowaway 1194 days ago [-]
Again, if you're not specifically talking about high-altitude climbing. High-altitude climbing is barely even the same discipline as what 99% of climbers do.
jariel 1194 days ago [-]
They may be culturally and physically acclimatized to mountains in every way, but not likely to the notion of 'mountaineering/climbing' in the romantic sense.
After all it serves no purpose, requires development of new tech, money etc..
I don't think anyone doubts they couldn't have done it long ago were some local ruler to have made it a priority.
I wonder if they thought the original European 'explorers' to be completely mad.
So that leaves the question: the mountains were 'right there' and they had innate ability, so why didn't they 'just do it', and have the routes all mapped out for centuries already? Is I think the rhetorical question that unpacks a lot of things.
sebmellen 1194 days ago [-]
That is an interesting question. I think the most obvious answer is that exploration is predicated on a certain level of technological advancement, below which it is completely unreasonable. If you don't have a food surplus and some academic establishment and governance and trade routes, exploration is an unreasonable vanity project. Guns, Germs, and Steel grazes this topic.
As Nepal develops further, I expect to see more of these sorts of headlines.
thisrod 1194 days ago [-]
I suspect that, before the industrial revolution, everyday life was adventurous enough. Climbing didn't take off until the 19th Century, when the romantic movement was reacting against the safety and boredom of modern life, at least for elites. Life in Nepal might have problems, but I doubt that boredom due to excessive safety is one of them.
I've been meaning to read that history for a long time, but never gotten around to it:
Climbing started as part of territory disputes and non-military shows of national bravado. There’s been a repeated surge after wars wrap up- perhaps a stand-in trial for young men to prove themselves after the trial of combat ends.
Many bold & great climbers of history were young men of no fame from poor countries. There weren’t that many wealthy dukes just looking for a way to pass the time.
thisrod 1194 days ago [-]
> There’s been a repeated surge after wars wrap up
What are you referring to? The Second World War seems like the obvious case. I think there were two things at play there. European climbers returned to the Himalayas, and resumed where they left off in 1939; perhaps the war delayed the ascent of Everest instead of causing it. Also, nylon! Ropes that don't break—and that don't break falling lead climbers—were a huge enabling technology for rock climbing.
jariel 1194 days ago [-]
The Indian subcontinent was very wealthy on the whole, and also extremely unequal, there are innumerable testaments to that. See: Taj Mahal etc.
Very poor on a 'per-capita' basis but with unlimited labour.
That said, slave labour doesn't necessarily advance technology.
spanktheuser 1194 days ago [-]
It’s also predicated on the existence of an economy which provides ample leisure for some while others labor ceaselessly at the edges of poverty. There’s a reason the Indian sub-continent lacked a food surplus, academic establishments, strong governance etc. Great Britain looted an estimated $45 billion from its Indian colonies during the 173 years of its rule.
beerandt 1194 days ago [-]
Let's not dismiss nation-state exploration with having an overly indulgent hobby.
Establishing and mapping boundaries, demonstrating military abilities, and even finding/protecting the trade routes you speak of, all required exploration on a large scale.
Not to mention things like establishing trade and a friendly presence with locals, establishing surveillance posts, and my personal favorite, surveying the geoid, as a means to better ICBM guidance.
Military always makes reason, and I suspect that might also be at play in Nepal.
sonalr 1194 days ago [-]
Somewhat related, highly recommend this documentary. It really shows the untold story of how hard of a life it is for a porter in the Everest region of Nepal. This is such a great story, and very well done by Nathaniel Menninger.
https://youtu.be/MxAU4wWG2Hs
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
It’s been said that history is written by the winners. I guess you could also say history is written by the people who pay for it.
krallistic 1194 days ago [-]
Its nice to see Nepal with this first winter books finally in the history books. They done so much for mountaineering.
AniseAbyss 1194 days ago [-]
Voluntarily climbing the top of a mountain is like a hobby rich people do. Later it became a matter of nationalism.
A climbing expedition takes a ton of money.
nix23 1194 days ago [-]
BS. Climbing was first done by crazy Mountain Kids, then the big state sponsored expeditions started (a first that was the north and south-pole), GB missed both and shifted to the biggest mountain with GB "Won" the race, hence the name of Everest as the "third pole".
A modern (new age) expedition looks more like that (no Sherpas no help from others who don't climb):
I’m an American, and I visited Pakistan on a whim back in September. I was able to spend a few days in the north. I can only say the north of Pakistan is incredible. There’s nothing that prepares you for seeing 8000+ meter mountains for the first time.
There’s no shortage of people offering tours, but I made my own plans. I rented a Toyota Hilux 4x4 for 4 days at $50/day, and they insisted I hire a driver because they didn’t trust me to drive solo (which in retrospect was wise of them because of language barriers, road conditions, police/military checkpoints, etc.). The driver quoted me a rate of $3/day (not a typo). I drove from Islamabad to Hunza and back in 3 days (I could only get one day off work, lol). It was way too much driving, but the trip was still incredible.
To make the trip extra fun, I had the worst case of food poisoning w/ diarrhea that I’ve ever had for the entire time. I developed that the night before I was scheduled to drive off. So in the morning I picked up some Imodium and baby wipes, and just stopped every hour or two. I somehow managed to avoid shitting in my pants, but I don’t know how. Nearly every bathroom in Pakistan, which might just be a hole in the ground, has a handheld bidet, which is a power washer for your backside. No matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit stop with a fresh backside.
Here’s some pictures of the traveling, sans pit stops...
As a Pakistani living abroad, here is my suggestion to avoid diarrhea:
Simply avoid eating food from outside anywhere besides KFC. No, not even McDonalds or Pizza Hut. Doesn't matter how fresh or clean the food or restaurant or bakery look.
I love meat and dairy - avoid these both things while in Pakistan (KFC is alright). Only drink canned cold drinks (Try to do as locals -- they prefer 'white' / transparent cold drinks over coca cola. Only drink boiled water (or mineral water from some large supermarket/pharmacy/hotel). And avoid eating salad after sunset -- don't know why, just don't.
If you can, take dried instant oats/ramen noodles/etc. and chuck them into bowl of boiled water. Fruits and veges are good - just make sure you wash your fruits such as apples and grapes thoroughly with cooled boiled water / mineral water before eating them.
Finally, if you do get diarrhea in Pakistan, DO visit the local clinic and get some medicine prescribed. It will help you feel better much faster then trying to 'brave it out' or relying on some simple medications from back home.
PopeDotNinja 1193 days ago [-]
I needed this advice in September, hehe :) I lost 7kg in 3 days!
Agingcoder 1193 days ago [-]
Fifteen years ago I spent three weeks in Pakistan (as part of a significantly longer trip) - entered from the Indian side not far from Amritsar, went to Lahore, spent some time in rawalpindi then off to the Hunza. I also got the nastiest bout of diarrhea I had ever had in my life, most likely caused my bad meat (I still remember the faulty kebab...).
The locals where very friendly. When I was in the bus on the karakoram highway, we had a brief stop (bathroom break, food, etc). I was chatting with someone who was asking where I came from, when suddenly he snapped his fingers. A can of coke appeared on his hand, and he handed it to me, saying 'welcome to Pakistan!'.
As to the landscape, I still remember it many years later.
A truly extraordinary place.
DeBraid 1194 days ago [-]
Great story! Epic mic drop.
> No matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit stop with a fresh backside. Here’s some pictures...
latchkey 1194 days ago [-]
Sounds like an epic adventure, right before everything went nuts!
In SE Asia, we call it a "bum gun". Cannot live without it and you won't use TP ever again. Easy to order off Amazon.
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
I call it an ass blaster XD
splike 1194 days ago [-]
This looks like an incredible trip.
Can I ask how did you safely organise a tour like that without getting scammed/putting yourself in danger? How did you get in contact with your driver?
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
I googled “rental car Islamabad” and found a rents agency. I called them and worked out a deal to pay cash upfront with any special security deposit or insurance. They put me in touch with the driver. Basically I just went for it.
asadlionpk 1194 days ago [-]
There are many travel startups now which specialize in organizing these trips to north for foreigners. I can’t think of a name but should be easily google-able.
If you want to go cheaper, search for rent-a-car services in Islamabad.
You probably wouldn’t be scammed or put in danger either way.
brailsafe 1193 days ago [-]
This sounds like a great trip, but I guess I'm surprised that no one mentioned this, but I'm at least a little surprised that you were able to and are so open about recreational international travel during what seemed to be an uptick in the pandemic. Was this not a concern? Was there no difficulty in the logistics of doing this "on a whim"? A local here in Canada recently posted his vacation photos during Christmas and new years of him seemingly vacationing in Columbia, and it seemed like just about the most tone-deaf thing you can do, but I'm curious what your situation was. It admittedly burns to come across stories from people that were essentially doing nothing differently while most people are restricted or have lost their jobs.
jrumbut 1194 days ago [-]
Driving tours like that are an amazing way to travel. It takes away that feeling of needing to jam in as many things as possible and you can just live and take in the sights for a while.
polishdude20 1194 days ago [-]
Woah thanks for sharing! I like the stairs leading to nowhere carved into the snow! These views remind me of my trip to Peru. Huge mountains all around and super nice people. The valleys between the mountains alone are already 8000ft + above sea level.
achow 1194 days ago [-]
That's a small glacier looks like.
And more interesting for me was the drink cooler that is carved out of the glacier (at the bottom of the same steps). Genius!
Kind of a weird question, but, did the bidet avoid the feeling of “my asshole is literally on fire” that comes with diarrhea + wiping?
The diarrhea is miserable, but the other part isn’t great either. I’ve often wondered if a bidet solves that.
jcims 1194 days ago [-]
Not OP but in general but the answer is yes, and in the rare circumstances where it’s not it’s still way better. The only reason i haven’t bought one for the house is that i can’t commit to the $300 when i know what’s out there for $1000. 2021 is a new budget year for discretionary purchases though, sooo.
BeetleB 1194 days ago [-]
Perhaps you're getting confused with French style bidets?[1]
The one people are talking about in this thread are simple and much cheaper.[2]
$300? You can buy one off Aliexpress for under $5.
amingilani 1194 days ago [-]
Pakistani living in Canada, here. I would hesitate before doing that, the cheap plastic ones might sprout a leak which isn't a problem in Pakistan because we design the bathrooms to be washed with of water buckets that goes down the drain in the corner easily. Find one at your local Home Depot. I found one for ~$80 CAD in Ontario but with a sturdier metal pipe and build.
Talanes 1194 days ago [-]
I don't understand why designing bathrooms to drain isn't a universal practice.
Mountain_Skies 1194 days ago [-]
I've had both a deluxe $500 washlet seat and a cheap $50 model. They both get the job done but if it fits in the budget, the more pricy model is worth it for the water temperature control alone. Due to the mechanical nature of the item, this is one of the few things I'd buy an extended warranty on if available. The $500 model lasted about five years before it died, which I suspect was caused by several watermain issues rather than a manufacturing defect or misuse. Stepping down to the $50 model was a bit of an adjustment and a minor quality of life reduction.
howlgarnish 1194 days ago [-]
Proper washlets are a different thing, the OP and I were referring to the basic bum guns which are not integrated with the seat:
Bought one off amazon for $25. Not the fanciest. Need to shut it off at valve after using it. It is not designed to be undwr pressure. But it has been working for 8 years. Don't waste your money on $300 bidet, it is just a hose.
polishdude20 1194 days ago [-]
I wonder if that feeling is due to stomach acid not being neutralized. Like you literally have hydrochloric acid eating away at your holey ghost.
A bidet probably diluted it well enough.
fakedang 1194 days ago [-]
It's acid so yeah.
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
My rear never felt raw. I used almost no TP during my entire trip to Pakistan. Basically I just took a targeted shower many times a day, and didn’t need to rub my bum raw.
xeromal 1194 days ago [-]
lol, sounds like you and I had similar experiences except I was in morocco. I rented a stickshift suv and they insisted I get automatic since I was american. lol. Drove several days pooping my brains out from the bad food all the way from marrakesh to chefchauen to tangiers. Great people and beautiful country though!
soared 1194 days ago [-]
Barstool sports has a guy who does travel blogs and their trip looks very similar to yours. Something I definitely want to do.
Any problems with passports, politics/etc?
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
No problems at all.
TCS_ 1194 days ago [-]
That poor driver...
+1 for those pictures!
Incredible scenery
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
I gave him a really nice tip :)
gautamcgoel 1194 days ago [-]
...like, a week's wages? $21?
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
Yup. $12 for 4 days, driving 8 to 14 hours per day. I had to cover his food and lodging, but we just shared a hotel room I was gonna rent anyway and food was cheap.
For comparison , I talk to a Kareem driver who nets $10 per day after expenses, and he drives 13 hours a day, seven days per week to support a family of 4. And my friend hired a part time for maybe 60 hours per month and she asked for $40/month.
cosmodisk 1194 days ago [-]
The pictures are beautiful and humbling at the same time- the sheer scale of the surrounding terrain is quite something, especially to someone like me,who comes from a flat country.
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
It’s crazy to me to think that the USA has some gorgeous, tall mountains, and the mountains in Pakistan are twice the height!
r_singh 1194 days ago [-]
Ooh how exciting.
The north of Pakistan is where my grandparents come from. However, being an Indian I can't really visit the place easily....
gariti 1192 days ago [-]
Wow awesome photos! As someone who has visited Nepal 3x to see big mountains, I've always thought of people visiting Pakistan to be a little crazy. You've definitely made me rethink that!
ericjang 1194 days ago [-]
Thank you for sharing the photos ! Some of the poses are pretty funny :)
sharadov 1194 days ago [-]
Incredible pictures, as an Indian I've always wanted to visit Pakistan, but given the shared animosity between both nations, I'll probably never get a tourist visa.
xerxesaa 1194 days ago [-]
You can. I'm American/Pakistani (dual passport), with significant family who are in India (including my spouse and grandparents who are Indian citizens).
I went with my wife to Pakistan last year. I have plenty of Indian family who visit Pakistan regularly. It can take 6 months-ish to get a visa though and it is very annoying, so I would not blame you for not wanting to go through the process.
By the way, as an American I can't visit India. I used to visit pre-2007, but since the Mumbai attacks (and further strict restrictions imposed in 2011 onwards) they no longer allow me to apply on my American passport and I've been rejected every time I try on a Pakistani passport.
The animosity in that region is so unfortunate and I hope it ends in the future. I've seen countless families kept apart because of it.
PopeDotNinja 1194 days ago [-]
Just go to the Waga gate, walk in backwards, and say you’re leaving.
On a more serious note, I was surprised to learn how little travel there is between two countries right next to each other.
amingilani 1194 days ago [-]
Ha, as a teenager I found out a movie was playing in Indian theaters a few km across the border so I began planning on getting a visa to hop across for a few hours. I may as well have declared I was walking over to NK as someone from SK :)
selimthegrim 1194 days ago [-]
Those areas are restricted for Indian nationals, like their side of Kashmir is for Pak nationals
sumedh 1194 days ago [-]
If you want a similar terrain then head over to Srinagar, kargil and Leh in Indian controlled Kashmir.
mixmastamyk 1194 days ago [-]
How about Nepal?
eqtn 1194 days ago [-]
No visa required
1194 days ago [-]
mraza007 1194 days ago [-]
I loved the pictures you took, i just can’t wait to go to northern Pakistan
Syzygies 1194 days ago [-]
I met Charles Houston, leader of the first two American expeditions on K2. He approached me to have me explain the mathematics of card shuffling, and I traded an hour listening to him explain the medicine of altitude sickness (which helped me later on some modest climbs).
He was on the wrong end of "The Belay" on the second climb, but survived.
counting people who have tried and failed to summit K2 vs space travel is (to me) a better quantification.
x3iv130f 1194 days ago [-]
23-29% of the climbers who try K2 die in the attempt.
It is at the very least an order of magnitude more dangerous than space flight.
Syzygies 1194 days ago [-]
This "Fatality Rate" compares successful summits and returns to those who die trying. Worded this way, it's a tricky number to pin down. You could be with a group that never planned to choose you as part of the smaller summit party, and still die on the mountain. But it's far from true that a quarter of people who visit the mountain die.
actuator 1194 days ago [-]
Just to add, Annapurna is the deadliest 8000er. With Kanchenjunga, K2 in second depending on where you get stats from.
saberience 1194 days ago [-]
I always thought Nanga Parbat was more deadly than Kanchenjunga.
whereistimbo 1194 days ago [-]
The real russian roulette...
Xenoamorphous 1194 days ago [-]
Just today we got the news here in Spain that a spanish alpinist, Sergi Mingote, died while descending from K2. There were multiple teams attempting this, then?
snowwrestler 1194 days ago [-]
There were several teams, and it’s my understanding that some of them had paying clients, which is pretty controversial. I saw a bunch of social media posts that were veiled complaints about bringing paid clients into a such a serious situation.
With the possible exception of the other teams on the mountain, I think all the big mountain climbers are psyched that it was the Sherpas to do it.
> There are around 20 climbers aspiring to summit, and claim a winter K2 summit. Some have acclimatized to Camp 3 but most have only reached Camp 1. Some will end their effort based on today’s first summit, and citing rockfall danger, others will still retain their motivation. We’ll see what the final K2 winter 2020/21 total is in a few weeks.
remus 1194 days ago [-]
I believe so. As I understand it (this is all third hand so take it with a pinch of salt) there are other teams who are waiting for another weather window to make an attempt.
Ayesh 1194 days ago [-]
I follow @nimsdai on Instagram, he took the initiative for this. Very nice content if you like that sort of content.
He (and I'm sure the others are too) are some real-life super humans!
mac_was 1194 days ago [-]
Worth noting that the team used oxygen, which wasn't the case in some other unsuccessful recent tries.
It is a great achievement for them but it was known that you can do it accompanied by the help of oxygen or a team using it.
1193 days ago [-]
saiya-jin 1194 days ago [-]
This. Using oxygen is regarded by all mountaineering professionals as 'bringing the mountain down to your level', no matter what season.
So the ultimate goal - climbing it in the winter, without bottled oxygen, remains open to others. It has been achieved on all other peaks, but requires many things to come together including huge amount of luck (but that's valid for any 8000m peak).
I would much rather see some elite, whatever the country, climb it in alpine style. The persons who achieve this can be rightfully titled kings of current high altitude mountaineering. Simone Moro, Nirmal Purja and few others have the potential.
As i understand it, the trouble with the Martian "mountains" is that, while some are very tall, they are typically also very wide, so they are less like mountains as we think of them, and more like slightly pointy plateaus. Check out the diameters in this list:
I couldn't find a good visual comparison of Martian and Terrestrial mountains.
mkl 1194 days ago [-]
Part of the problem of comparison is the smaller diameter of Mars. Olympus Mons has such shallow slopes (~5°) that from the top you can only see the slope of the mountain itself, as everything else is below the horizon. https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/25960/is-the-c...
However, Olympus Mons has a very definite edge most of the way around, formed by escarpments up to 8km tall, that you'd have to get up before you get to the gentle slope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
Mountain_Skies 1194 days ago [-]
Between the distance and the lower gravity, sounds like it would be fun to mountain bike down, well, until reaching the 8km drop.
SubiculumCode 1194 days ago [-]
"Even though the surface gravity on Mars is only 3.7 meters/sec (compared to 9.8 meters/sec on Earth), the thin atmosphere means that the average terminal velocity hits a nail-biting 1,000 km/hour or so, compared to about 200 km/hour back home."
-for those wondering if 1/3 gravity could make the fall not as dangerous. ....although I suppose you might have more of time at the beginning to stop your descent by grabbing onto something maybe
na85 1194 days ago [-]
Olympus is so wide you can't see the summit from the base. Because the summit is past the horizon.
NickNameNick 1194 days ago [-]
I think it's going to be a while before we see
"First ascent of Olympus Mons without supplemental oxygen"
vuciv1 1194 days ago [-]
Ah! Just a few days ago I wrote an article about what it would be like to climb on Mars!
You would likely enjoy the red Mars book series by Kim Stanley Robinson. One of the scientist kind of abandons her duties to just explore Mars in a rover!
vuciv1 1194 days ago [-]
Just looked it up, seems awesome. I'm almost done with what I'm currently reading, so I will pick this up next. Do you have any other recommendations? I've been looking for more stuff like this (futurist, adventure, sci-fi, not cheesy), but just haven't been able to find the right one.
soared 1194 days ago [-]
Yeah it’s great! New York 2142 by the same author was the first one I read and it was amazing. It’s nyc post global warming where everything is flooded. Interesting setting and adventure/business drama stuff.
SubiculumCode 1194 days ago [-]
I've lived in the same small town as Mr. Robinson for over a decade, despite that he's a bit of a local celebrity, I've never ever run into him. I was sure I'd see him at the Delta of Venus cafe....it seemed so reminiscent of some of the communities in the series, I was sure that there was some inspiration coming from some of the local Davis oddities.
SubiculumCode 1194 days ago [-]
I definitely recommend the series. Excellent excellent series. Coincidentally, I was out tonight at a used book store and I found and bought a copy of Red Mars (Book 1) to replace my lost copy. Ha!
pcthrowaway 1194 days ago [-]
Spacesuits are aid
mhh__ 1194 days ago [-]
Although Mars is probably the ultimate "because it's there", nature cannot be fooled - Everest has effectively been commercialised now, but the other 8kms like K2 regularly eat extremely experienced mountaineers for breakfast.
wbl 1194 days ago [-]
Olympus Mons is an easy climb with life support because it isn't very steep.
Synaesthesia 1194 days ago [-]
Olympus Mons is almost the size of France and is 21 km high. Gentle slope but still, quite a hike.
SubiculumCode 1194 days ago [-]
Interesting, but how Texas turned into France has to be the bigger story ;)
yowlingcat 1194 days ago [-]
Well, my friend, it all began with an innocuous rebranding of "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" on balmy afternoon...
Synaesthesia 1194 days ago [-]
When I was young I had a picture of Olympus Mons superimposed on Texas. It's pretty big
vuciv1 1194 days ago [-]
Ah! Just a few days ago I wrote an article about what it would be like to climb on Mars! I learned about Olympus Mons in the process. It turns out that the surface area is equal to that of Italy's. There are a few interesting features like cliffs and craters, but you can probably just get around it.
> In the 2015 newswire, Green quoted Dawa Gyalje Sherpa: "We are hoping as young climbers, to take climbing in Nepal to a new level. All of us have climbed much bigger mountains but always with foreign climbers. We want to show that we are not just porters on the mountain, climbing only for our livelihood, but we are interested in climbing because we enjoy it, too.... We are the young generation of Sherpa climbers but we are looking to the future of Nepal and Sherpas also."
Very interesting book for me. I knew (know?) very little about mountaineering.
Most of the "forgetting" seems to happen when it comes to communicating about larger, less notable expeditions.
“The mountaineers were accompanied […] by 362 porters, so that the expedition in the end amounted to over four hundred men, including twenty Sherpa guides from Tibet and Nepal, with a total weight of ten thousand pounds of baggage”
I don’t know the details of that expedition, but typically, the sherpas make multiple trips up and down the mountain to bring the necessary material up to height, so that those paying can relatively comfortably acclimatize at height. Climbing Everest almost always is a team effort.
Even if you ignore those porters , those “twenty Sherpa guides from Tibet and Nepal”, IMO, deserve to be mentioned there more than Jan Morris, who didn’t make it further up the mountain than 22,000 feet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Morris).
(and aside: ten thousand pounds of baggage seems very low to me. That’s less than 30 pounds per porter ⇒ I guess that’s what made it to the highest camp)
If I remember correctly (it's a while since I read Hillary's account of the expedition), only three of the sherpa were able to go up to camp 4, and two of those them had to turn back due to altitude sickness. Tenzing Norgay did not have the technical knowledge to operate the oxygen systems. Also, crampons were far less advanced back then, so the mountaineers were also responsible for cutting steps every few days for all the routes that the porters were using to haul gear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzing_Norgay
Kind of ironic to me that the less famous one is the only one with the photo! Ha!
I'd be very surprised if a man of Tenzing's calibre and achievements could not figure out something so trivial.
Edit: I've found some citations that support your point, I apologize.
Although, I'd add (a) Tenzing's account states that he offered to take a photo but was declined. And (b) a more fair description would be "because he had never used a camera before" rather than "didn't know how to work a camera".
The later suggesting a lack of intelligence or civility (though I'm sure that wasn't your intent), I'm probably just nitpicking :-).
This potentially could be a reason as well that he wasn’t brave enough to admit.
That theory doesn't make sense to me.
Basically you either join Gurkha and fight for British, go for mountaineering career, become a corrupt government official (which you can't just join due to nepotism) or try to leave if you have money for it.
This 'critique' goes both ways and kind of show its natural to humans - when both Tenzing and Hillary came back to India from Nepal (Nepal didn't have an international airport back then, and it took quite a bit of time to built one, all expeditions went through India's sea ports) - Hillary was almost completely ignored, and Tenzing was the only one to be celebrated.
I understand the motivations ie due to past shameful english colonialism, plus good old nationalism. But its like that everywhere. It doesn't make it any more acceptable these days obviously.
What is somewhat sadder is the fate of the porters on which almost every expedition and trek, except the purest of pure self-supported alpine expeditions, still relies. These are poor people who are typically from the lowlands, acting as sole breadwinners for their families, doing difficult, dangerous manual labor at high altitude without beneficial genetic adaptations or decent clothing. There are some good small charities trying to improve their conditions, for example https://www.canepal.org.uk/
Do these exist? From what I understand Sherpas are the ones building the routes every year... So even if you hike alone, pack all of your stuff into base camp alone (good luck! many trips), carry all your own ladders and ropes, and pack all of your stuff up to each subsequent camp alone... you're still hiking on routes that Sherpas built at the beginning of the season...
There are a good number of expeditions of a higher standard of mountain ethics which still happen and still many new routes to claim in the Himalayas. But these are far removed from the world of the stereotype of the type of person who wants to climb Everest who get all the media attention - look up Nick Cienski for a good example of virtue signalling, ego and narcism.
If you're interested, The Alpine Journal is an excellent resource for capturing all the lesser known alpinists doing amazing things with little to no media attention and a tiny budget. Among the low key mountaineers the is even a bit of a culture of not reporting first ascents, due to the bureaucratic nature of permits - allowed to climb one peak, but not one next door. Those in the know, who are looking for a more pure climbing experience, prefer India and Pakistan where permits are easier to obtain, there are virtually no climbers and hundreds of new routes to do in unspoilt valleys.
> Their names are just usually dropped when talking about it, which is a shame.
Reminds me of Amir Mehdi's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amir_Mehdi#K2_(1954)
Basically every expedition in Pakistan in the past struggled with this, and they even had an additional budget for this.
While on a cruise ship last July (well, 2019) I made friends with a Nepalese security screw and we talked about Nepal and their family occupations. It's very sad to hear of how disposably sherpas are treated on the vanity tours by unskilled foreign climbers. Basically the sherpas end up dragging along their clients and they face outsized risk on the way.
[0] https://medium.com/galleys/a-postscript-to-into-thin-air-e23...
Edit: found a source to balance, https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB864852385619851000
Apa Sherpa, one of the most prolific Sherpas, holds many records [2]. Interesting fact he was Sherpa to Peter Hillary (Edmund's son).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mount_Everest_records [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apa_Sherpa
This funding has historically not been available directly to Sherpas. That is partially because they did not have platforms to influence the purchasing decisions of a large audience (the main reason companies fund full-time climbers). And it’s partially because Western cultures tended not to value indigenous people the same way it valued their own citizens.
Both of those have been changing a lot in the past decade, and it’s nice to see younger Sherpas able to take advantage of that.
If you're not specifically talking about high-altitude climbing, then I'd argue this is wrong. There are famous *serious* climbers like Fred Beckey who managed to make climbing their entire lives on next to no income. Lots of serious climbers build up their rack from "booty" (taking material abandoned by other climbers in a range of situations, often bordering on questionably unethical), live in a van or a tent, hitchhike, etc.
After all it serves no purpose, requires development of new tech, money etc..
I don't think anyone doubts they couldn't have done it long ago were some local ruler to have made it a priority.
I wonder if they thought the original European 'explorers' to be completely mad.
So that leaves the question: the mountains were 'right there' and they had innate ability, so why didn't they 'just do it', and have the routes all mapped out for centuries already? Is I think the rhetorical question that unpacks a lot of things.
As Nepal develops further, I expect to see more of these sorts of headlines.
I've been meaning to read that history for a long time, but never gotten around to it:
https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Dragons-Conquest-Fergus-Flemi...
Many bold & great climbers of history were young men of no fame from poor countries. There weren’t that many wealthy dukes just looking for a way to pass the time.
What are you referring to? The Second World War seems like the obvious case. I think there were two things at play there. European climbers returned to the Himalayas, and resumed where they left off in 1939; perhaps the war delayed the ascent of Everest instead of causing it. Also, nylon! Ropes that don't break—and that don't break falling lead climbers—were a huge enabling technology for rock climbing.
Very poor on a 'per-capita' basis but with unlimited labour.
That said, slave labour doesn't necessarily advance technology.
Establishing and mapping boundaries, demonstrating military abilities, and even finding/protecting the trade routes you speak of, all required exploration on a large scale.
Not to mention things like establishing trade and a friendly presence with locals, establishing surveillance posts, and my personal favorite, surveying the geoid, as a means to better ICBM guidance.
Military always makes reason, and I suspect that might also be at play in Nepal.
A modern (new age) expedition looks more like that (no Sherpas no help from others who don't climb):
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP10/climbing-note-siegrist
Thalay Sagar with Stephan Siegrist and Rob Frost
There’s no shortage of people offering tours, but I made my own plans. I rented a Toyota Hilux 4x4 for 4 days at $50/day, and they insisted I hire a driver because they didn’t trust me to drive solo (which in retrospect was wise of them because of language barriers, road conditions, police/military checkpoints, etc.). The driver quoted me a rate of $3/day (not a typo). I drove from Islamabad to Hunza and back in 3 days (I could only get one day off work, lol). It was way too much driving, but the trip was still incredible.
To make the trip extra fun, I had the worst case of food poisoning w/ diarrhea that I’ve ever had for the entire time. I developed that the night before I was scheduled to drive off. So in the morning I picked up some Imodium and baby wipes, and just stopped every hour or two. I somehow managed to avoid shitting in my pants, but I don’t know how. Nearly every bathroom in Pakistan, which might just be a hole in the ground, has a handheld bidet, which is a power washer for your backside. No matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit stop with a fresh backside.
Here’s some pictures of the traveling, sans pit stops...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tZ3scbSFbPbxQCpG7
Simply avoid eating food from outside anywhere besides KFC. No, not even McDonalds or Pizza Hut. Doesn't matter how fresh or clean the food or restaurant or bakery look.
I love meat and dairy - avoid these both things while in Pakistan (KFC is alright). Only drink canned cold drinks (Try to do as locals -- they prefer 'white' / transparent cold drinks over coca cola. Only drink boiled water (or mineral water from some large supermarket/pharmacy/hotel). And avoid eating salad after sunset -- don't know why, just don't.
If you can, take dried instant oats/ramen noodles/etc. and chuck them into bowl of boiled water. Fruits and veges are good - just make sure you wash your fruits such as apples and grapes thoroughly with cooled boiled water / mineral water before eating them.
Finally, if you do get diarrhea in Pakistan, DO visit the local clinic and get some medicine prescribed. It will help you feel better much faster then trying to 'brave it out' or relying on some simple medications from back home.
The locals where very friendly. When I was in the bus on the karakoram highway, we had a brief stop (bathroom break, food, etc). I was chatting with someone who was asking where I came from, when suddenly he snapped his fingers. A can of coke appeared on his hand, and he handed it to me, saying 'welcome to Pakistan!'.
As to the landscape, I still remember it many years later.
A truly extraordinary place.
> No matter how messy it got, I also walked away from a pit stop with a fresh backside. Here’s some pictures...
In SE Asia, we call it a "bum gun". Cannot live without it and you won't use TP ever again. Easy to order off Amazon.
Can I ask how did you safely organise a tour like that without getting scammed/putting yourself in danger? How did you get in contact with your driver?
If you want to go cheaper, search for rent-a-car services in Islamabad.
You probably wouldn’t be scammed or put in danger either way.
And more interesting for me was the drink cooler that is carved out of the glacier (at the bottom of the same steps). Genius!
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMj_FbNF8VZduHZ5AaEDU9V...
The diarrhea is miserable, but the other part isn’t great either. I’ve often wondered if a bidet solves that.
The one people are talking about in this thread are simple and much cheaper.[2]
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=French+bidet
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Handheld-Toilet-Adjustable-Pressure-F...
https://www.amazon.com/Purrfectzone-Sprayer-Toilet-Diaper-Br...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33060246812.html
A bidet probably diluted it well enough.
Any problems with passports, politics/etc?
+1 for those pictures! Incredible scenery
For comparison , I talk to a Kareem driver who nets $10 per day after expenses, and he drives 13 hours a day, seven days per week to support a family of 4. And my friend hired a part time for maybe 60 hours per month and she asked for $40/month.
The north of Pakistan is where my grandparents come from. However, being an Indian I can't really visit the place easily....
I went with my wife to Pakistan last year. I have plenty of Indian family who visit Pakistan regularly. It can take 6 months-ish to get a visa though and it is very annoying, so I would not blame you for not wanting to go through the process.
By the way, as an American I can't visit India. I used to visit pre-2007, but since the Mumbai attacks (and further strict restrictions imposed in 2011 onwards) they no longer allow me to apply on my American passport and I've been rejected every time I try on a Pakistani passport.
The animosity in that region is so unfortunate and I hope it ends in the future. I've seen countless families kept apart because of it.
On a more serious note, I was surprised to learn how little travel there is between two countries right next to each other.
He was on the wrong end of "The Belay" on the second climb, but survived.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Snead_Houston
[1] https://www.mountainfilm.org/media/breathtaking-k2-%E2%80%93...
It is at the very least an order of magnitude more dangerous than space flight.
With the possible exception of the other teams on the mountain, I think all the big mountain climbers are psyched that it was the Sherpas to do it.
> There are around 20 climbers aspiring to summit, and claim a winter K2 summit. Some have acclimatized to Camp 3 but most have only reached Camp 1. Some will end their effort based on today’s first summit, and citing rockfall danger, others will still retain their motivation. We’ll see what the final K2 winter 2020/21 total is in a few weeks.
He (and I'm sure the others are too) are some real-life super humans!
So the ultimate goal - climbing it in the winter, without bottled oxygen, remains open to others. It has been achieved on all other peaks, but requires many things to come together including huge amount of luck (but that's valid for any 8000m peak).
I would much rather see some elite, whatever the country, climb it in alpine style. The persons who achieve this can be rightfully titled kings of current high altitude mountaineering. Simone Moro, Nirmal Purja and few others have the potential.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountains_on_Mars
I couldn't find a good visual comparison of Martian and Terrestrial mountains.
However, Olympus Mons has a very definite edge most of the way around, formed by escarpments up to 8km tall, that you'd have to get up before you get to the gentle slope. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
-for those wondering if 1/3 gravity could make the fall not as dangerous. ....although I suppose you might have more of time at the beginning to stop your descent by grabbing onto something maybe
"First ascent of Olympus Mons without supplemental oxygen"
https://jerseyfonseca.com/blogs/climbingmars
https://jerseyfonseca.com/blogs/climbingmars